RiL Podcast #002: ??✊☝️What are sign languages, really?

The Cantonese podcast for fans of linguistics, language lovers and Cantonese learners alike. With the release of the Netflix reality show Deaf U, the second episode discusses sign languages, Deaf culture, and various ways of communicating without sound.

Show notes and links available on the Cantonese page. Transcript below.

This podcast is also available on YouTube. Don’t forget to subscribe!

[Intro]

苗:有一樣嘢非常之重要嘅,就係叫做……我又唔識講喇,中文。Indexing啊。手指指噉樣……

以:我唔知咩係indexing。

苗:手指……我就叫佢手指指啦,好啦。

[jingle]

00:20

靳:話咁快我哋又嚟到第二集嘅〈絮言.狂想〉啦,係喇。我哋今日好似多咗個新嘅主持,係喇係喇。其實我唔關事㗎,我係靳尼,我係……我係隔籬台嚟㗎,唔係……唔關事㗎。

以:你入咗嚟喇已經,噉就畀你留喺度啦。

靳:係喇係喇係喇。

苗:歡迎,歡迎。

靳:我哋係咪正式開始咗㗎喇?我想問。

苗:係啊,呢個就係開頭喇。

靳:好啦,我哋依家個podcast有三個host喇。噉就……係啦,其實我都唔係呢個專業入面嘅人士嚟嘅,噉但係我哋都係由一個角度嚟同大家講一啲關於語言……即係有趣嘅事情啦。噉其實我哋上次都講咗一啲……一啲香港人對語言嘅七大迷思喎,係咪啊?(以:係啦)我唔喺度啊,所以……

以:你囉,又唔嚟,搞到我哋兩個講得咁辛苦。(苗:係啊)噉今次呢,我就想講一個細啲嘅topic啦。噉但係都……其實都好多嘢講嘅。事關啦,上個禮拜呢,Netflix就出咗一套新嘅真人騷,叫做Deaf U,就係講美國一間專係畀聾人同埋弱聽嘅大學啦,噉佢哋入面啲學生日常生活係點樣啦,就可以睇到佢哋喺生活文化上面同我哋呢一個健聽嘅世界有啲咩相似或者唔同嘅地方啊……噉所以今日我哋就想做一個特別少少嘅主題啦,就係講手語呢樣嘢嘅。因為好多健聽嘅人對於手語呢樣嘢都冇乜概念啦,噉我自己都係最近有興趣去睇下睇下先識返啲關於手語嘅知識㗎啫。噉但係去到講手語之前呢,我就想首先同大家去到傾一傾啦,到底聾人同埋弱聽呢個文化係點樣㗎呢?同埋有啲咩關於聾人啊、弱聽嘅字眼或者用詞係我哋要注意下㗎呢?

苗:係。噉呢,社會上好多人都通常會用「聾啞人士」呢個稱呼。噉政府同埋好多嘅機構呢,都係會用呢一啲噉樣嘅字眼。但係聾人群體呢,就其實唔係太鍾意呢啲噉嘅字啦,噉佢哋就會自稱做聾人啦,或者弱聽嘅。噉至於聾人呢係咪真係完全聽唔到嘅㗎呢?噉又唔一定㗎喎。有好多情況,就係如果嗰個人佢聽到少少聲但係佢……唔足以令到佢明白人哋講嘅內容啊,或者佢唔能夠去好有效噉樣去直接溝通啊,噉樣佢哋嘅身份認同呢都好大機會會係聾人㗎喇。因為佢哋嘅溝通模式、佢哋嘅生活模式,都係同健聽嘅人有好大嘅分別啦,如果一個人係弱聽嘅話呢,通常佢哋可以透過例如助聽器啊,呢一啲噉樣嘅器具去協助佢哋日常生活,噉佢哋溝通上呢,係同健聽呢,係……唔係好大分別,可能佢哋都係用口語溝通啊,或者佢哋連手語都唔識嘅。噉有好多弱聽嘅人嘅情況都係噉樣㗎囉。

以:噉我見你啱啱月「身份認同」呢一個詞啦,噉可能有啲人就會覺得好奇怪,因為我哋香港人一般講身份認同呢,都係講譬如話香港人啊,呢一啲噉樣嘅身份啦,噉就好少人會諗到,啊原來聾人啊、弱聽啊,呢啲唔係淨係一個形容詞噉解,而係一個文化、係一個身份嚟㗎喎。

苗:係啊,喺英文裡面呢,deaf呢個字呢,除咗係解聾之外呢,仲可以係解聾人嗰一個群體啦。噉個分別就係真係講緊你聽唔到嘢呢,就會係用細階嘅d,就寫deaf呢,如果係大階D呢就係指嗰一個聾人文化或者成個群體囉。

靳:噉其實係咪所有聾人都會識手語㗎呢?或者係咪……即係佢有其他唔同嘅溝通嘅分法噉樣㗎?

苗:係喇,噉通常我哋會將聾人同埋手語呢兩樣嘢連繫埋一齊啦,但係實際上有好多聾人呢其實係唔識手語嘅。起碼喺香港嘅情況呢,識手語嘅人係遠遠比聾人嘅數目係少好多嘅。噉有好多嘅聾人呢,佢哋仍然會喺主流嘅環境底下成長啦,譬如佢哋會讀主流嘅學校啦,同埋因為而家嘅聾校都越嚟越少啊,所以有好多嘅聾人嘅小朋友呢,都係去一啲主流嘅中小學嗰度讀書嘅,噉所以佢哋都冇乜機會學手語。而且亦都冇乜機會去接觸其他嘅聾人嘅小朋友。噉所以佢哋都冇乜機會去學到手語囉。有好多嘅家長呢,直頭係反對佢哋去學手語嘅,覺得佢哋一定要學到用口語啊、一定令到佢哋融入到健聽人嗰個環境呢,先至係……先至係成功囉。

以:噉我都聽講過呢,弱聽嘅群體之間可能會出現一啲噉樣嘅矛盾嘅,因為某一啲成員呢可能就會選擇想融入呢一個健聽嘅世界裡面啦,噉但係其他人呢就可能會相信啦,有呢一個強烈嘅身份嘅人呢,應該要團結一齊啦,互相支持啦,成為一個獨立嘅群體嘅。噉但係如果一個弱聽或者聾人想喺呢一個健聽嘅世界裡面溝通到啊、生存到嘅話呢,噉其實有啲乜嘢工具啊、方法係可以用㗎呢,係可以克服到嗰個障礙㗎呢?

苗:噉最簡單嘅當就係筆談啦,寫字。噉呢一個係比較低成本嘅做法。如果係現代嘅話呢,就好多手機啊,呢一啲……可以用WhatsApp啊,或者直接打字喺個手機上面畀人睇啦,噉都係一個溝通嘅方法啦。噉有好多聾人呢都係識讀唇呢一樣嘢嘅。噉讀唇呢,就唔係一個好準確嘅科學嚟嘅。因為有好多嘅音啦,其實我哋個口形都係差唔多嘅。廣東話仲要有六個聲調啦,上集講過。所以有好多分別意思嘅嘢呢,都係喺口形上面係睇唔出嘅。噉呢個就會對好多聾人造成一個困難啦。加上而家因為個個都要戴口罩嘅關係呢,係啊所以世界各地嘅聾人呢,都係多咗個隔閡㗎。噉我哋應該點樣去嘗試去消除呢個隔閡呢?

以:我諗起前排喺網上見到一個特別嘅口罩啊。即係佢就有個透明嘅窿喺中間啦,噉有塊膠喺度嘅。噉一方面佢可以擋到你啲口水啦,但係另一方面就可以畀你溝通嘅對象睇到你嘅唇。噉就可以睇得到讀唇嘅重要性啦。噉我睇嗰個真人騷嘅時候呢,噉就真係覺得,嘩,好勁喎佢哋,係可以完全睇到晒人哋想講嘅意思啦,同埋係可以完全用口語同健聽嘅人溝通到喎。噉但係我一路睇就一路諗,噉廣東話係咪會冇咁容易呢?因為廣東話嘅發音啊、讀音呢,就唔似英文咁多變啦,噉對於將唔同嘅子音組合埋一齊呢,噉就冇英文咁多可能性啦,噉再加埋好似你講噉樣,個聲調都好緊要。噉於是我就覺得同美國比嘅話,喺香港想融合可能個難度會高咗好多囉。

苗:同埋呢,讀唇都係好取決於個人本身有冇一啲聽力啦。大部份嘅聾人其實佢都唔係零聽力嘅,佢都會有少少嘅聽力啦,噉佢僅餘嘅聽力或者佢係有其他嘅儀器協助底下聽到少少聽音嘅。就加上佢讀唇,噉先可以容易啲知道另一個人講緊啲乜嘢啦。同埋佢哋兩個溝通嘅時候呢,都必須要面對面啦,唔可以擰轉咗去啊、或者係做緊其他嘢啊、或者食緊嘢啊,甚至乎有時有啲鬚比較多嘅人呢,都可能會令到讀唇比較困難嘅。

以:幾多鬚先會啊?

苗:唔知啊,遮住晒噉樣。

以:嘩,乜原來咁嚴重㗎。噉我就想知道,聾人講嘢嘅時候係點樣嘅呢?因為你就講到,政府好鍾意將聾同啞就group埋一齊,變成聾啞人士啦,噉但係我哋都知道,聾同啞係完全獨立嘅兩樣嘢嚟嘅,噉你可以係聾啦,可以係啞啦,亦都可以係兩樣都有嘅。噉其實好多聾人呢,佢聽唔到人講嘢啦,但係佢可以講到嘢嚟到覆返人嘅。即係佢讀完你唇之後呢,佢就可以用口語嚟答返你嘅。噉到底多唔多人係有呢一個能力呢?

苗:係喇,噉有一樣好重要嘅嘢,就係唔係所有聾人都係一出世就聾嘅。有好多呢,係後天比較耐嘅時候先至聾啦,有一啲係本身已經學咗講嘢好多年,可能係小朋友幾歲嗰陣聾啊,又可以,或者係……甚至乎係比較大年紀嘅時候先至聾啦,都係可以嘅。由此可見,啞同聾本身根本就冇乜嘢好大嘅直接關係啦,不過天生聾嘅人都好大機會係唔識講嘢嘅,因為佢聽唔到自己發音啊,所以佢冇辦法可以有一個聲音嘅回饋啦,噉佢哋就聽唔到,所以學講嘢都係比較難嘅,如果冇一個好好嘅言語治療師去幫佢嘅話。

以:同埋有啲人可能唔知啦,其實聾人係的確會笑嘅。因為可能某啲人呢,就會以為笑係語言嘅一部分啦,噉如果聾人唔係用緊口語溝通嘅話,噉點樣用手語去表達呢個情感呢?噉其實佢哋呢,係的確會笑嘅,同埋都有好多唔同嘅情感嘅聲音啦,因為呢啲係人嘅本能嚟嘅,就唔係喺口語裡面學返嚟嘅。

靳:同埋其實呢,用手語嘅人呢,或者係用手語嘅時候啦,都要用好多面部嘅表情,噉所以如果要有……睇一個人做手語,係咪好似都要睇埋個樣係有咩乜嘢嘅表情噉樣㗎?

以:真係㗎!噉我就首先利申咗先啦,我就學咗兩句英國手語嘅,就真係得兩句嘅啫,都已經知道呢,其實有好多手勢呢,都係好取決於個表情嘅。譬如同一個詞語、同一個手勢啦,你用疑問嘅表情打出嚟呢,同埋你用陳述嘅表情嚟做出嚟呢,係完全兩個意思嘅。所以好多時候呢,當一個人用緊手語嚟溝通嘅時候呢,佢嘅表情係可以好誇張嘅,嚟令到對方可以睇得好清楚,你係講緊乜嘢嘅意思啦。

The rest of the transcript is available to Patreon members.